i don’t believe that love should be unconditional for the very reason that it lets people get away with behaviours that should be unacceptable in a respectful world.

i get the “hippy” like idea, i like hippies (the one’s that don’t hit drums in rainforests at least, it scares the animals) and the idea that respect and love and caring is something that we should all do. however, just like hitting drums in the rainforest produces the conditions that make birds fly out of their perches and for every ground dwelling thing bigger than a bug within earshot to scamper off in fear or annoyance there are some things that we as human beings should realise, everything is conditional. right down to what we do as individuals and society that allows the conditions that are both desirable and undesirable to exist.

if the condition is that we do not educate people to respect others or themselves then, guess what? we get people that do not respect others or themselves.

we may not be able to change others completely or quickly or even at all but as Jennifer points out, self respect is a big key and a great place to start in overcoming trauma, i believe. once you have some self respect then you do start to put some worth and value on yourself. and everyone knows that if you can put a value onto something then it can be compared to other things. once you can put a value on something and compare things then you will find again that things are conditional. 1+1=2 on the condition that you have 1 and add another 1 to it. atoms+molecules+amino acids+planet+the right amount of sunshine+time=life. life does not occur unconditional in nature. planets only remain in orbit on the condition that the parameters are right. not because of some flakey idea that magic or other supernatural power is involved. everything in this universe is conditional. there is life on this planet because the conditions are right. there are no trees on the moon because the conditions are not right for trees. great for craters to still be there. not so great for the craters here on earth under our conditions, namely the weather, which guess what? relies on conditions.

i also happen to think that conditions also (funnily enough) can condition people. some that do abuse are also victims in many cases. not just on a empathic humanistic level but sometimes because on a more practical real-world level that they were also abused and now perpetuate the behaviour because they think it is acceptable. there are those with mental instability that can not make rational or moral decisions. and of course there are those that make excuses in favour of their own selfishness and/or immoral reasons.

wether we like it or not, everything has conditions. that is a fact of this universe.

and we must continue to create the conditions that educate everyone about respect and understanding for all people on all sides under all conditions.

good on you Jennifer for standing up for yourself and putting a value upon yourself so that others can be held to the conditions that give you respect and love as every human at least deserves. all the power of the world to you.

When we finally face our fears and we refuse to allow ourselves to be deluded to the truth any longer, when we become wise enough to know the answers or at least brave enough to ask the questions then we can break our shackles and realize it is our own comportment that stops us from doing what it takes to leave the people who are wrong for us behind and find people worthy of sharing our lives with.

Me personally, I had misguided unconditional love for people who did not earn my love for the first 30 years of my life due to childhood abuse. Unconditional love for me made it impossible to find a good women. I am good looking and tall but without therapy connecting on an emotional and spiritual level with an intelligent women was impossible. I now see unconditional love in anything other than one way from a parent to child as a mental illness which if not overcome keeps those afflicted with it out of sync with the world at large.

Before therapy I was blind to a lot of things involving inter personnel dynamics, between people with a normal sense of conditional love, like the worth of each singular trade of love that came and went within the interactions of my life, blind to the worth society at large gave to each of them. I believed in free love. I gave unconditional love and I expected unconditional love even though it was denied to me 99% of the time I still expected people to feel like me I was so blind it was as if my desire for unconditionally loving interactions created a mask that I wore altering my perspective of the true nature of the world, making the habits I learned along the course of my life ill by nature.

To me people would often seem mean when I tried to open up to them expecting unconditional love when they gave me responses I did not want to hear or as it often was no real response at all. But in hindsight they were not being mean they were in part responding to my unsightly expectation for unconditional love but for the most part they were just doing what people inafflicted by the desire for unconditional love do which is to maintain the integrity of the nature of their conditional love and to have few worthy friends which they trust to open up to truly.

Being abused only briefly and then being hypnotised to forget the abuse by my abuser left something at the back of my mind that I could not recall to be able to resolve until I had faced up to the facts to remember I was hypnotised in therapy. Before that unconditional love destroyed my abilty to gauge who was worth my trust, I loved unconditionally therefore I trusted anyone I did not sense was a direct threat to me.

Before therapy I had this warped view of society that we could all be one world sharing and giving all that we can but normal people with normal conditional love do not feel a need a world like that and never will because we build trust slowly, we only fully love people who truly deserve our love and we are willing to take that love away from people when they treat us badly.

Now I give the people that come into my life 1000 points if they lose those points through treating me bad and don’t make enough points back by treating me good (good being worth far less points then they lose for treating me bad) then when they reach zero points they have lost the chance to be my friend and I remember they are not good ‘friend matierial.’ There is always going to be at least seven billion more individuals for me to give a chance to.

Conditional love and society at large always has and always will work in the way that if you give love then you get love and if you get love then you give love. If people treat others badly they lose the chance of love. If the love is unconditional then it can’t be true love because it is simply a warped minds view of the world. Thankfully as human beings we can all choose to change, given enough time and patience, when we set goals for ourselves and keep trying.

However, as a child, one of my memories is that I was told, too “forgive and forget”, these very words taught me to believe that those who abused me were worthy of my love. As I grew up with this belief in mind, I then chose a partner whom was abusive; I understand that my choice may have been a repition of my childhood.

During my marriage to this man, I questioned the “forgive and forget” of his manipulations and actions. I realised that surely I deserved to be loved, unconditionally with boundaries, standards and values (just as I give to those I care for). The love, I thought I had for him was’nt love. Towards the end of our marriage there are little gaps where I remember little; at times I sometimes try to forget his behaviour/actions. However, it has taken time, around eight years to “forgive ” him but I will “never forget” (all that I remember); my recent flash backs are a reminder).

Bless you!

Maybe it is the fear of loss of the fantasy that there is so-called unconditional love that prevents people from letting it go and looking more carefully at the variety of types of reality-based love? But maybe it’s being brainwashed by decades of fingerwaggers saying never to expect anything in return for love and feeling guilty that I am examining the nature of love, as if I had a right to do that? Then again, maybe I do have that right, especially as believing in so-called unconditional love has repeatedly caused me agony.

It suits authoritarian people that in the people they control there is a deep sense of obligation to tolerate being dominated or worship those in control. A superb book on this topic is Soul Murder: http://www.amazon.com/Soul-Murder-Effects-Childhood-Deprivation/dp/0449905497

The Wikipedia entry for unconditional love http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconditional_love uses this example: ” The puppy is cute, playful, and the owner’s heart swells with love for this new family member. Then the puppy urinates on the floor. The owner does not stop loving the puppy, but needs to modify the behavior through training and education.” But a puppy urinating on the floor is merely an inconvenience. The intention of the puppy is not malicious and the puppy can be trained out of this behavior, unlike a sexually abusive adult human.

When it comes to the forgiveness topic I use the term “reluctant forgiveness”, which may or may not evolve into “rabid dog compassion”. The idea is that a sexual abuser typically does not acknowledge their abuse, nor feels authentic remorse. The abuser may have a personality disorder, which they are stuck with for life and was formed in their own childhood by abusive parents or situations. My comprehension of the sexual abuser’s illness may initiate feelings of reluctant forgiveness but knowing that the abuser is still capable of harm, I need to keep very firm boundaries, at a safe distance, just as if I felt pity for a dog with rabies.

Anyway, thanks again for your valuable thoughts. Wishing you an excellent year.

Cassandra, loved your comment(s) and no, I didn’t think they were “too long.” In fact, you could write more – much more, as far as I am concerned! Adding links and book titles or whatever else would also be appreciated, and I’m sure it’s OK. (If not, please let me know, but I think this is a pretty open group and everyone’s contribution is appreciated. Especially by ME. God bless and Good Cheer as we move inevitably forward into the New Year.